You're going to be amazed at how something that could have been a real tragedy turned out to be quite a success to celebrate. Anyone with a dog prone to barking, experiencing anxiety, fear, or being reactive will understand this impressive victory.
And why I think there should be a special ribbon for it.
The multi-certified trainer and owner of Calm Canine Academy Karishma Warr, joins us from London discuss reactivity, fear, and setting boundaries for both the human and canine members of our families. Parents of dogs of ALL ages will find takeaways to use immediately.
Catch Part 1 of our interview at https://thedoodlepro.com/28.
Follow this week's guest Karishma at instagram.com/calmcanineacademy and listeners can enjoy 20% off training services at https://www.calmcanineacademy.com/ with code "DoodlePro".
View full show notes and a photo of this week's winner of Doodle of the Week, Penny, at https://thedoodlepro.com/30.
Visit instagram.com/thedoodlepro for behind-the-scenes peeks at the doodles Corinne works with daily!
You can tell that our guest today just loves doodles and poodle mixes and poodles.
They just really seem to appreciate them, and that is such a delight from a fellow trainer.
Part one of my interview with the owner and head trainer for Calm Canine Academy, Karishma. was such a hit that it spurred the most conversations and comments from any of our episodes, I strongly suggest catching episode 28. Which is part one of this interview. If you haven't listened to it already.
But today is part two and it is just as fabulous. You're going to be amazed at how something that could have been a real tragedy. Turned out to be quite as success to celebrate. Anyone who has a dog who is prone to barking, experiencing anxiety or fear or being reactive will understand this unique victory.
And why I think there should be a special ribbon for it.
Doodle breed. Dogs are easy to love, but can be challenging to parent. I'm Doodle Expert Car Gearhart, also known as the Doodle Pro, and I'm here to help doodle parents have a more fulfilling and rewarding experience with their doodles. No one has professionally worked with as many different doodle breeds, or has more experience with doodles than I have, and I love to share my expertise in a fun, compassionate, and non-judgmental way.
From my years of work and education in the pet care and dog training industry, I have an incredible network of skilled training. Grooming and veterinary professionals to share their knowledge with you and give you the doodle specific answers you are looking for. I hope you enjoyed today's episode as I help you parent your doodle like a pro.
Congratulations to this week's winner of doodle of the week. Enjoy listening to Penny's mom. Explain why she is so deserving. Congratulations.
name is Natalie Pacheco. I am from San Diego, California. My dog is a medium standard golden doodle brown named Penny. The funniest thing she does is lay upside down in the couch with her arms and legs spread open and be lazy all day long.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: If you think your doodle deserves to win this award? Make sure you go to that. Doodle pro.com/doodle of the week. And let me know why they're so deserving.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: I loved seeing a recent video of somebody was working on something in your backyard and your poodle was able to rest and was able to see it wasn't managed where it was blocked, but it looked like your poodle was able to be at rest and calm with that happening.
But it took work to get 'em there.
Karishma Warr: Oh yeah, it did a lot of work. It took me really understanding him to get him there. Like really understanding him because for a long time I didn't really get what he needed. I didn't understand what he needed to be happy and comfortable and, healthy, and it took us a good four, five years to figure it out together.
But we finally got him to that point now. And to me, HIRA is like a example of he gives me, not hope. Like I, I, believe in behavior change, yes. But for him, he's really showed me like it's gone above and beyond what I thought was even possible. I'm like, wow, you are legit chiller than I am right now. Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah. We haven't actually told anyone this, but it's such an excellent anecdote that I have to tell you now. We actually got burgled the other day. Oh. And he. Even maker peep, he was in from upstairs chilling. I was like, you are so non-reactive now. You are useless. This is Rubish . I was like, you've run the other direction now.
I was like, come on. Not even a bark. Not even one little buff. This is
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: ridiculous. So you were burglar and you're anxious reactive dog. You were able to get all the way. It was like, mom told me my home is safe. I feel safe, . We were like, what is the
Karishma Warr: point of you being reactive and anxious and highly strong if we can literally get burgles and, but it's a sign of how his nervous system is so much healthier than it used to be.
And I think that's what we said. Yes. Completely high strung, isn't it? And why doodles and poodles can be so high strung is because they are sensitive and emotional. And that's what makes them smart and what makes them amazing. To be as a companions and no dog has those human eyes quite like the doodles in the poodles.
That's true. But it does mean that they are much more likely to develop problems around stimulus that we can't control, like door knocking and apparently burglars, but he didn't care. So good training I guess. But , all the guard dog trainers around the UK are like, oh my god. Kushma, what are you doing?
This is rubbish
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: I'm really glad that you can laugh about it. We have an episode coming up called our Guard Dogs Friendly. And people love the idea of picking a dog whose nature and people actually don't think of doodles and poodles is having that in them, but picking a dog, even having a stronger reputation for being a guard dog, cuz it'll protect us.
And that also means that your dog is living at that level, day in and day out. And the odds of you having a friend. Wanting to host dinner, want needing to have an appliance repairman come in the house are much higher than being burglar. So what's your day-to-day life like? Do they need to be at that level all the time?
So I'm glad you can
Karishma Warr: laugh about it. Yeah, I know. We were very lucky. It was a, the reason we can joke about it is that everyone is safe and nothing serious. Good, nothing serious happened. We just now have this really hilarious anecdote that this dog who used to be barking at 50 times a day at any noise from out drop of the pin outside, and he's just snoozing away in the attic or not even paying attention to anything.
I'm like, oh God, this is,
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: there should be a special ribbon or plaque that goes to parents of reactive dogs that their dog can respond that way. .
How to Respond to Hiding or Growling: I
Karishma Warr: think it's a brilliant idea, honestly. Like this is something that like dog sports and everyone who loves doing those things, I would love a version of that for react.
Took a walk, didn't bark, you got a ribbon, you got two ribbons and a cookie like that would be great. It's
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: way more embarrassing than a dog that won't jump through a hoop. There's a lot of social pressure when you're. In an urban area or even walking around the neighborhood in a suburban area, when your dog is lunging and growling and pulling, there is a lot of social pressure that people feel guilty or embarrassed about.
Karishma Warr: So it does too. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with, I was listening to your podcast about adolescent dogs Today actually. And you were talking about how, especially as they get bigger and they're not puppies anymore, and that period of time, adolescents so frequently when we're seeing behavior problems propping up and the embarrassment factor is definitely a big thing that we, work with our clients on about that because you have to have a, that has to be a balance, right? Between meeting social needs, your social needs, and then meeting the dog's needs as well. And it's a complicated conversation for sure.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: I forget which book it was recently where they suggested Laugh Out Loud when your dog is growling and barking and lunging. If you just start laughing on the walk, you can't be like scolding and correcting. Cuz we feel a lot of pressure of that We need to punish them to look like a good dog parent.
Karishma Warr: Oh yes. I see this all the time and something I, some of the tips that I give in my dog Guardians are seeing Happy birthday talk. Brilliant to the dog really loudly about how silly it's been. Oh, are you very angry and scary. Very good. Terrifying. Yes. What? You saved us. You protected us. Like whatever you need to do to make yourself feel a little lighthearted in that moment.
Because there is a lot of social pressure to punish, to scold, to show people around you that you are handling it. Oh no, I'm being the authoritarian. I'm making sure that I'm telling them that's wrong. Or maybe people want to see that you're in charge and feel safe and I totally get it.
Yeah. The thing that I always say to, guardians is that, as good as it feels in the moment to do that. Like as, as much as it feels like you're addressing the problem. I always ask, oh, is it working? Oh, so you're seeing a reduction in the behavior. That's usually the question I bring up at this point.
I'm like, okay, so you're seeing the behavior go down and they say, oh no. And I say, ah, so it's not actually working, is it? And they're like, no. And usually that explains, one, if the behavior is not immediately going away. You are just shouting into the abyss . Yes. Agree. And that's not really helpful for one.
So functionally, I'm always like, is this working for you? And so frequently people come back to me and saying, you know what? They stop in the moment, but it just comes back again later. Or they stop for a second, but they look scared and then they bark again a second later. And I think what that really addresses to me is that trying to shut down that behavior in the moment is likely not the strategy that will get you to your end goal, which is that you can walk down the street and Fido's happy and you are happy.
And Bob, the neighbor can say Hello Fido. And Fido goes, Hey Bob. If we want that picture and not Fido, who's barking and lunging dealing with the problem as it pops up, like whack-a-mole is not gonna be effective. And yes, the worst case, which I'm sure you say to your, guardians all the time, in the worst case, they can actually make it worse.
And that's what I'm really concerned. So I basically coming in with two big reasons. Number one, it's not gonna get you to your end goal, likely it's not even gonna work. And two if it does work, it's could make some really bad things happen down the line. It could make behaviors worse, it could increase fear, it could create more frustration.
It depends on the manner of your dog barking, but regardless, it's a, it's never gonna be a super effective solution. Would you agree with that? You said give it a similar kind of advice to your, clients. .
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: Absolutely. And I think when you ask, is it working, it's brilliant because is our goal to be seen as an authoritative dog owner and to impress the neighbors?
Or is our goal to fix this problem? Which is more important that we've performed in front of the neighbors. There's the social pressure to do but do we really want Fido to feel comfortable and happy when they see the neighbor? And to be able to enjoy the next decade of walks together peacefully and calmly?
Karishma Warr: 100%. And that's always my, biggest thing. As I say, like we're putting in the work in the short term and it feels like it's gonna take a long time, but yes, especially with doodles, you've got a long life ahead of you with this dog, luckily. Yes. Good. It's great. It's a fantastic thing. Like I, hope to have many, years, decades with my, poodle and it's worth it.
It's so worth it. And also it's not actually that long. I always just put that in perspective. I'm like, you know what? I was the worst until I was like 23 years old. I was awful. My poor parents, I'm shock. Come on, let's be real. Especially, me, being a millennial, tell me a while to like fully, mature.
We are talking maximum four years of adolescences and those really difficult years for the dogs. So I'm always saying to people like, listen, it's not it's still a relatively good timeframe we're talking about here. Like it feels like a long time to have to put behavior change protocols in place.
Yeah. Yet it feels better to just go, oh, shush, fluffy. But what's more impressive? That or actually fixing the problem. And then you go yes to zoo to your neighbor and, your neighbors go look at you and say, wow, it's so cool. Fluffy looks so much more comfortable and so, happy and well behaved. And that's, the.
Payoff, but it just happens a little later down the line.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: And your connection and your relationship with this dog has only grown stronger through that style of training. Oh it's, next level. So people hear reactivity and sometimes they might think that's like just barking or lunging, but how do you define reactivity when working
Karishma Warr: with.
really good question. So there are many different definitions. My one that I use the most is an overreaction to something that is a relatively innocuous everyday stimulus. So for example that could be a fear response. So I'm very scared of the mailman. I'm very scared of the child on a scooter.
Or it could be, I'm super excited about seeing my friend on the street or I'm a bit unsure about this. So it could be any emotion. It could be a good emotion or a bad emotion, but it's just too much. It's inappropriate. It's like an inappropriate amount of that emotion for me. So there are a few different definitions of reactivity. My favorite is just an overreaction to a stimulus. So I think most of the time we are talking about lunge barky behaviors. So are dogs that are having often fear responses, sometimes frustration, but we can also see reactivity looking like avoidance and flight.
So it's really any of that fight, flight, freeze form spectrum to me anyway. And so we can see dogs that are moving towards the trigger. Rough, refer rough, get away from me, or dogs that are hiding and pulling away from the trigger. No, go away. Leave me alone. Neither case, we are looking at.
Elevated blood pressure, increased heart rate, rapid respiration, the physiology is lit up of the animal. Is there some sort of big emotion there, but what emotions, I don't know, , but usually we're looking at like a dog moving towards or away from from the thing, whatever that trigger is.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: And both are an, effort to create distance.
Karishma Warr: So one Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sorry. I should have definitely, I always forget that. Yeah. I've got to this point now. I've said these things so many times, I'm like, I have to, I've doubled balanced. Didn't you hear me last time? Yeah, You know this, right? No. Hundred percent . Even when those dogs are pulling towards other dogs very frequently, or all people, it's a 10 attempt to increase the amount of space between them and that trigger, right?
Here. I think a great example used to be and still can, Sensitive towards new dogs. He was brought up in the Brooklyn Dog Park scene, which you can imagine is not the most polite and regulated social scenes . Yes. And what he would do is he'd enter a space, he'd find a dog, he'd give them the eyes, and he'd go right up to them and pose his face in their face and gooi, you're gonna make trouble.
And I mistook it as friendly. I was like, oh, he's going up to them. But it's kind this
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: prosocial.
Karishma Warr: Yeah, Chris, Rachel, I thought movement towards, he wants to interact. Right? But it's like somebody rushing to the edge of their property with a shotgun being like, get off my yard. Technically you are moving towards the trigger, but actually you want to create distance between you and that trigger, even though the movement is towards, yeah.
And you're trying to scare them away. And that's also what's happening when we're seeing growling. Even snapping, even biting behaviors.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: If we go back to our dogs being reactive and trying to create distance with fear, what do you think of people trying to help them get used to it By pushing more interaction or bringing them closer to the thing that they're barking at or hiding.
Karishma Warr: Such a good question, and this is again, where I'm gonna pull from my personal experience of making every single wrong decision that you can with your dog. It's so classic. I did all of these things that I now spend all of my time telling folks not to do. I made all of these mistakes and I, this one was my biggest one.
So my poodle was extremely fearful from a young age. He, literally pooped when trucks went past him. Oh, in Brooklyn when we lived there. It was really sad. Yeah, he was really scared. And I thought at the time that I was being really positive reinforcement based. I was bringing really good cookies out and I was putting the cookies closer to the cars and trying to get him to go and say hi to people, like glaring it up, speaking, luring him, placing the treats on the floor, saying, come on, showing him the cookie, trying to get him to do it.
What ended up happening was my dog stopped eating food from my hand, . Oh, altogether All together. Oh yeah. He's very sensitive. . He, his
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: bingo. His bingo is working. Yes.
Karishma Warr: He it out. He was like, okay, so Kushma is gonna tell me I'm safe and they're gonna show me food and that's gonna make me uns. That's gonna be an unsafe situation.
So he's learning that he can't trust me to keep him safe. He's learning that the food predicts scary things and many instances happened with me and Hira, where I lured him closer to a scary thing. And then that person said, Hey, or the dog moved and he completely panicked because he was way too close for comfort.
And it's a boundary issue. That's how I see it now. The way I see it is, Hira was saying to me, I'm uncomfortable, mom. I'm a little bit numb. I'm a little bit uncomfortable. And I was essentially steam like bulldozing him and going no, you're fine. It's gonna be fine. You're totally okay. You're gonna be great.
And it really resonated with me, especially because when I was young, I had a very traditional South Asian upbringing where I was very much expected to be very high achieving, to perform very well. And I think lots of people have this experience of being pushed by, caretakers and guardians, and very frequently I think the experience of that creates is more anxiety and more, feelings of unsafety and feeling trapped.
Not only now are you feeling uncomfortable, now everyone is looking at you and encouraging you to go towards this thing that you feel uncomfortable about. And. Yeah. The
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: pressure of building.
How to Respond to Hiding or Growling: Yeah.
Karishma Warr: Yeah. And everyone I can see, when I look back at how I was working and I see guardians, they're trying so hard, they're using happy voices.
They're trying to do the tricks that they learn in puppy school, and it's, I see all the pieces, but then just not quite coming together. And what I've actually started saying to my guardians now as I'm getting more and more clued into this, is I, often say now I don't even use that much food when I socialize puppies or when I work with fearful dogs, because sometimes the food makes you.
Makes you think that the dog's okay, they might, that they're comfortable with? Yeah, they will. They'll, yeah, they'll do things that they're uncomfortable for with, for money. , essentially. Yeah. They're like, I'm gonna do what I, don't feel good about this, but I'm gonna do it for money because that money's really important to me.
And removing food from the equation when we have fearful dogs can help us gauge true threshold. What is their true baseline with no coercion, with no kind of manipulation at all. How far would you stand from this person? If you have the choice, and I think that's a question we should be asking any fearful dog, rather than jumping straight to how do we close the gap between the dog and the scary thing.
We tend to find that they've become conflicted. We don't get genuine behavior change. I dunno if you experience the same thing, you get they'll go forward, they'll run away, they'll go to the person and then they'll freak out. For true behavior change, it needs to really be on their terms.
And I've made a, rule for myself where I. Have to listen to the first note that the dog gives me. So say I'm trying to move my dog towards a scary statue, and he stops and he looks away. I don't say, come on, let's go. I say, okay, off we go. Then immediately, absolutely. The first time, that was so hard for me.
I'm so pushy. I know
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: you. Give me a couple of thoughts. I love using food to change associations. Yes. But not for lores. Yes. So I don't give the scary person, which isn't actually scary to me, but to the dog, the scary for some reason to them, I don't have them delivering treats. Mm-hmm. I don't ask for them to move closer to the scary item and deliver treats.
I create the distance first. And then if my dog sees whatever it is, if they're reactive to other dogs, if they. treat like to change association. Yes. And I do use their eating or not eating, like your poodle went all the way of the not eating from the hand that they're over threshold.
And that Yeah. They're not in a place they, can't access the training part of their
Karishma Warr: brain. A hundred percent. Yeah. The whole food quest, the whole food thing is really interesting. I obviously still use, still, I'm a dog trainer. I still use food. Yeah. . Especially to train new behaviors. Especially to build comfort. I use a lot of food to help dogs regulate with sniffing and searching behaviors. And of course I still, I play games like look at that. Or engage disengage and, things like that where, you know, when they look at scary things, they might get a cookie.
A hundred percent. Like you said, never ever giving people treats to give the dog to encourage them to get closer. And I've also been experimenting, which is nerdy, but I've been experimenting recently with. Even removing some of the food from the equation in those counter conditioning setups and using especially for dogs that are very food motivated, because sometimes I'm like, I don't even know how, are you sure how far you're pushing yourself?
M I'm, we look yeah. I'm like, I don't trust you to tell me the truth right now. And using things like play or Yes. Or exploration or movement or something like that as reinforces because then I tend to find you might, you just get different, take different tests in chemistry. Right? You get to take different tests with different tools and see what works what works and doesn't work for that dog.
But yeah, I think that positive reinforcement and the use of food with dogs has had this huge explosion over the last 10, 20 years. But I think we're now coming to this point where we're refining where it's like treat doesn't equal good. Like food doesn't all mean positive. It's a dog that decides whether something is positive or not.
And my dog would much rather watch someone from 40 feet away, or not less than that, 20 feet away and gather information Yeah. Than be, yeah. Now than be fed cookies by that person. He would feel too, just like I would like to. Niche analogy. I would like to look at someone on Instagram before I go on a date with them and just figure out what's going on.
Whatcha you into, you're not a fascist? No. Okay, cool. You got a good check in
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: before I get closer. You like the
Karishma Warr: same TV as me. Alright. You're cool. Like it's the same thing, right? We don't always wanna go straight in for a hug. Sometimes we wanna gather a bit of information. But yeah. Yeah, so it's a very interesting conversation for sure around the food thing.
It's a yes, something I've been thinking about recently. A lot
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: food is seen as the good stuff that we pay are doodles with when we're training. But you're right, the menus longer.
Karishma Warr: Yes, that's a great way
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: of saying it. Yeah, you could pick other things as good stuff, but you're still always adding good stuff.
I love my, I used to be a New Yorker too. I love, like my favorite food is a good slice of New York pizza and I don't love Harry spiders, but I might go around a harry spider to get to that slice of pizza, which would be a really highly driven dog, motivated by food. If it's something really delicious.
I don't feel any better about that spider. That spider didn't help me. . I don't, the pizza didn't help me feel better. I just endured it. Yes. In order to get to the thing I wanted. So I think you're right as to being cud in, do I, it's not always do I need to raise the value of the food? Yeah. I need to be able to read my dog's body language and see what they Yes.
Karishma Warr: I love that the menu is longer. It's such a good such a good ex like way of explaining it and, yeah, you're a hundred, you're a hundred percent right that it, it's all about picking, figuring out exactly for your dog. I Maybe we are not just gonna keep raising the stakes. Will you do it for 10 bucks?
No. How about 20? How about 50 instead? It's about how do we make this experience something that the dog will do? For 1 cent. Yeah. For very little. They don't even need they'll do it for free. They don't even need payment. They find it rewarding itself. And, that, that to me is a big part of like when, working with fear and aggression, especially with extremely sensitive dogs, which does tend to be the, my area at this point.
I tend to get my heroes the dogs like that, who will stop eating from hands or in the presence of humans altogether. And we have to be, oh gosh, we have to be really careful. And it makes you a really good trainer, cuz you have to figure out ways to make sure that they, feel safe. But yeah, to, I love that man.
I'm gonna use that menu line. It's a really good Oh, good.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: Not gonna use half of yours.
I love following you on Instagram and seeing another beloved Black dog
I say. My black cou Nestle's, his major flaw is that it's just hard to photograph. He's so hot. So videos, , you know everything about him. I adore and I love his coat in person, but it's just harder to share online.
Karishma Warr: It's, I always say to my poodle, I'm like, for a virtual dog trainer who makes content for a living, I picked the worst breed because you are so handsome.
That's so hard to photograph. Like, how is my
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: life ? We host doodles in my home in like a boutique boarding program. And people will say, I didn't see your dog. And I'm like he was there.
Karishma Warr: just in the corner. Smudge somewhere. That
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: shadow you thought
Karishma Warr: you saw . Or when they're like lurking in a corner of the room, sometimes we have no idea they're there and suddenly they're like, oh God.
Jesus Christ. Where'd you come from? .
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: That isn't the case with Nestle because wherever I am, he is half cavalier. So the Velcro is in full effect with
Karishma Warr: him. That's so funny. Here. Likes to lurk in dark corridors. It's like he's a very creepy little guy. He's great. We love him. ,
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: he sounds wonderful.
So I imagine that for people whose dogs have issues with fear or aggression going to a training class really just pushes their dog over the threshold and they're not able to access just learning both for the human and the.
Karishma Warr: yeah. I know many dogs for whom just even getting in the car, they're gone. Even leaving the house, they're not eating. So how are they gonna get to a training class? And many training classes are four, five weeks or something like that. One hour a week. I know many dogs, five hours of work.
That's, not gonna, that's not gonna hack it. Five hours in a training facility is, it's not gonna work. And I used to teach classes like that. Actually. I used to teach in-person classes and in-person services in Manhattan. And after the pandemic and after the success that we saw working virtually, we've actually switched all of our services over.
And I'm sure that you've been exploring how much amazing learning and community. You can create using virtual platforms. And honestly, for us, it's been a game changer. Like I said, we specialize in these like very complex cases. And so for us, creating services that are super accessible for fearful dogs, for clients all over the world, for folks who have schedules that are not super flexible or don't want to drive with their dog to go to training classes.
So you've seen this amazing success through working virtually, especially working with fearful or aggressive or anxious reactive dogs. And we, really center empowering guardians. So that's like our big thing.
Yeah, that's like our whole thing. Our whole deal is we wanna give you the skills, like you are gonna live with this dog for however many decades. You're gonna have to probably dogs for many years of your life. Let's give you the skills you need to work through. Kind of various concerns that you are experiencing with your dog.
And let's make you your dog's advocate and you, your dog's safe space and make you feel confident in their healing journey and how you're gonna help them feel safer in the human world. And yeah, if you ever need any help anyone in the help from us, you can find us at Comcast Kenan Academy on Instagram.
And that's basically where we live. We live there. We do our thing and you can find loads of details about stuff that we, have to offer there.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: you've been really generous and you have a discount for our listeners if they wanted to work with you virtually.
Karishma Warr: I absolutely do. Yeah, so you can use the discount code in Capital's Doodle Pro and
you're gonna get 20% off your first service with us, and that could be like a group class for fear and reactivity or an initial consultation where you speak to a specialist and talk through what a plan might look like and get the first steps up and.
Corinne Gearhart- The Doodle Pro™: Kma, I so appreciate you joining us.