Ep 76: Helping Fearful, Anxious, and Reactive Doodles with Dr. Zazie Todd | The Doodle Pro® Podcasts

Does your Doodle bark at leaves, lunge on leash, or spook at everyday noises? You’re not alone. In this episode of The Doodle Pro® Podcast, certified trainer Corinne Gearhart talks with Dr. Zazie Todd, author of Bark: The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, and Reactive Dog, about why Doodles are prone to anxiety and reactivity—and how you can help.

You’ll learn the difference between fear and anxiety, why positive reinforcement builds optimism, and how relaxation protocols can transform daily life with your pup. 🐾 Stay tuned until the end for an exclusive $20 off my Relaxation Protocol for Distractable Doodles™
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Transcript

 Book Club and Q&A with Zazie Todd | Fear vs. Anxiety in Dogs, Positive Training & Relaxation Protocols

Dr. Zazie Todd joins The Doodle Pro® to unpack fear vs. anxiety in dogs, positive training, desensitization, counter-conditioning, and relaxation protocols. 

Here you go—SEO framing up top, then the verbatim transcript (words unchanged, just stripped out of HTML). Copy/paste ready.

[00:00:00]
 One of our listeners, Debbie, reached out about her Irish doodle Rosie being scared of leaves in the yard and asked how to handle it. I thought, what a better time to air this special interview with Dr. Azzy Todd, about fear and anxiety in our dogs.

Dr. Zazie Todd: The thing is everybody has something that they're afraid of that perhaps is not entirely rational.

But everyone has something. It could be spiders, it could be heights. It helps us to empathize with our dog then. 'cause we can think this isn't just our dogs being stupid, actually we know something about what that feels like. Yeah. So we can see it more from our dog's point of view then.

And I think that's helpful in helping our dogs to feel safe and safe with us.

Speaker: Doodle breed. Dogs are easy to love, but can be challenging to parent. I'm Doodle expert Karin Gearhart, also known as the Doodle Pro, and I'm here to help doodle parents have a more [00:01:00] fulfilling and rewarding experience with their doodles. No one has professionally worked with as many different doodle breeds, or has more experience with doodles than I have, and I love to share my expertise in a fun, compassionate, and non-judgmental way.

From my years of work and education in the pet care and dog training industry, I have an incredible network of skilled training. Grooming and veterinary professionals to share their knowledge with you and give you the doodle specific answers you are looking for. I hope you enjoy today's episode as I help you parent your doodle like a pro.

Hi Doodle parents. Today I'm joined by Dr. Zazi Todd, author of Bark the Science of Helping Your Anxious, fearful, and Reactive Dog. We're unpacking what fear versus anxiety really are and why positive. Doesn't mean permissive how to [00:02:00] use desensitization and counter conditioning and stick with me. Stay to the very end for an exclusive listener discount on my relaxation protocol for distractable doodles designed specifically for our sensitive high octane doodles.

Let's jump in.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: I have. Our phenomenal guest, Dr. Zazi Todd, and she just released a new book, the End of last Year, bark the Science of Helping Your Anxious, fearful, and Reactive Dog. And you could see I have tons of highlights as I've dove in, and I really am enjoyed it. I'm going to welcome Zay right now. Hello, how

Dr. Zazie Todd: are you?

Hello. I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me come chat with you. Oh, it's, I've been really looking forward to it.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: So loved wag our students and listeners of the Doodle Pro podcast [00:03:00] really enjoyed it as well. And I would love to know what inspired you to write bark.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Really it came from having worked with my own dog Badger, who I wrote about in wa. He's the inspiration for all of it because he was such a lovely dog, but also a dog with a lot of issues fears and anxieties.

And very bouncy, incredibly clever. So he really has been the inspiration for everything that I've written. And of course now I have a 14-year-old Shihtzu who we adopted when he was 10. And he doesn't have many fears, but he does have his little issues as well. And it's very different having a little dog.

I'd not had a little dog before, so I'm inspired by my own pets really. But also I had worked with a lot of people with fearful and anxious dogs, and I wanted something that I could refer people to that would really make things seem easier for them and give them hope, because having an. Anxious [00:04:00] or fearful dog.

It's really hard. I wanted to write something that would give people easy tips and also gi just give them a feeling of hope that they can make a difference to their dog.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: I think you nailed that approach on the head here with it's very approachable and understanding and empathetic as it can be. Really hard.

One of our students in here anytime they need to leave, they set up a sitter for their dog with separation anxiety. And it can be tough. And if your dog tries to create space out of fear, anxiety by barking or lunging, it can feel embarrassing on a walk. And you touch on that in your book a bit.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yes. And I remember what that feels like. Going back far enough, I know what that feels like. It does feel embarrassing. It feels difficult. People feel a whole range of negative emotions around that. Like they feel like they're letting their dog down even though they're not. They're doing the very best they can for their dog, but it [00:05:00] hurts you to see your dog.

Struggling basically. So it does feel hard, and I think we also often feel judged by other people. And other dog owners who aren't necessarily helpful, who won't necessarily put their dog back on leash, even in a place where their dog is meant to be on leash. Yeah. Those people who say he's friendly and act like you are the one with a problem they're not being helpful.

No. So other people around you can also make you feel worse. And then also if you do get help, it's important to get help, but that in turn costs money. And unfortunately, a lot of people go to the wrong places to get help because dog isn't regulated. And so then they risk making things worse, and that costs them more money down the line and more anxiety and stress for the human as well as for the dogs.

It can just be a really difficult situation to be in.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: Yes. And we, as in our podcast and in the Doodle Pro Academy, we specialize in doodles and they come with the genetics of the poodle side, [00:06:00] which can run more sensitive and can be more anxious. But also then you can add in an a herding breed, or there's different breeds that we're mixing together to get this delicious mix of the doodle.

But it can have some baggage with it. And we have a lot of doodle parents whose dogs struggle with fear and anxiety. And when I read your book, I loved how in the beginning you explained differences between fear and anxiety. I'm even, as I'm talking to you, I'm using them interchangeably, how they develop, how you can try to prevent them from developing and then some real actionable.

Techniques to tackle them and to make your dog's life more comfortable and more enjoyable, and your relationship more enjoyable together.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah. Thank you. That's what I've really tried to do in the book and the way I've structured [00:07:00] it, it's so you've got a beginning that's introductory background information that applies to everyone.

Lots of practical tips in there. Then I've got a set of chapters that apply to different specific issues. And then section that draws it all together. And so we do talk about fear and anxiety as if they're the same in ornery language. That's how we use them. But technically they are actually slightly different because fear would be a response to something that is actually dangerous.

And it's important to remember that this is a response that keeps us safe. So if we as humans were out walking and happened to see a grizzly bear or a lion or tiger, we would have a really strong fear reaction and that would help to keep us safe in that situation. And in the case of anxiety can be a very long lived worry.

And there's not actually necessarily. Something that's dangerous there. Now of course, it's hard for us to judge the subjective thing, like we can't get inside our dog's head and know exactly what they're thinking. But in anxiety, it's not necessarily the case that something bad might [00:08:00] happen. And so it, it can be very long lasting.

It can be the result of a lot of stress. And it can result in the dog or person being too alert all of the time when they don't need to be. And that can be a bit of a problem. So I think for our vets, if we go to the vet to ask for whether or not medication might be recommended, that is something the vet will probably consider.

And I'm not a vet, I spoke to lots of vets when writing the book, but I myself am not one. But it's just useful to, I think, to remember that distinction and that sometimes these behaviors, they may seem. Inappropriate to us. But from the dog's perspective, there are times when actually this is really helping them potentially in what they think is a life or death situation.

Yes. Even though we know it's not,

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: and you even we don't wanna apply like human level emotions to our dogs that can put them and us in an unfair dynamic. But it does help to put ourselves in their shoes and think of, and you talk about this in the book, and I loved how you [00:09:00] explained it.

Some of us are, have irrational levels of fear, of safe spiders or of heights or whatever it is that makes, if I see a mouse, the mouse isn't actually going to hurt me, but I am terrified. Like it is just from inside. Nothing's ever happened to me. It, I just feel fearful about it and. My kids just have a chuckle, but they don't try to convince me out of it or have the mouse feed me a cookie.

So I'm over the fear. That's a funny image.

Dr. Zazie Todd: The thing is everybody has something that they're afraid of that perhaps is not entirely rational. Yeah. And from an evolutionary perspective, maybe there is something rational about being afraid of rats and mice. I don't mind mice myself personally, which is quite lucky.

But everyone has something. It could be spiders, it could be heights. And I give some examples in the [00:10:00] book of. Things that have happened to me that have actually been quite scary. Yeah. Like I talk about when I only mentioned it briefly, but one time we were followed down a mountain by an angry mama bear when we had had our dogs off leash and there'd been a bear cub around.

And we were still new to here. So in those kinds of situations, the fear makes sense and it helps hopefully to keep you safe, but it doesn't help. Or rather it does help, it does. To know that we can have these things, we can be afraid of spiders. I know someone who will literally jump on a table and scream when he sees a mouse, yes. And he's done that.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: I'm with him.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah. And probably a lot of people will be with him. But it helps us to empathize with our dog then. 'cause we can think this isn't just our dogs being stupid, actually we know something about what that feels like. Yeah. So we can see it more from our dog's point of view then.

And I think that's helpful in helping our dogs to feel safe and safe with us.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: And I enjoyed how in the book, I kind of wanna [00:11:00] follow how you tackle things in our conversation, if that's okay. I'd love to talk about the what and why and then as some of our students in the Doodle Pro Academy have been able to ask some questions, I'd love if we could tackle them together after we get some of the bases covered a little bit.

Okay. I really enjoyed, as a parent to humans who have worked in schools and special ed your conversation about parenting styles. And someone might not think of their doodle as their fur baby and use the term guardian. And I use the term doodle parent, but we are their caretakers and we also lead with what our our expectations are of how we live together in the house.

And you talk about the different parenting styles and how that plays. Into our training and our living together with our dogs. Do you mind delving into that a little more?

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah. So there's [00:12:00] been quite a lot of literature on how people parent their kids. And then in the last few years, people have been applying that to dogs and what it's like having a dog, because in, it's not the same, but in many ways it is the same because some aspects of it are the same.

So there are actually different parenting styles, and the one that we should be aiming for is what we call authoritative parenting. Now, some people have a bit of an issue with that name because. The names are designed, they're like psychological terminology, yes, is not really everyday language. So it can be a bit tricky.

But what that means is that you are responsive to your dog's needs or your child's needs if you're talking about a child. So you know what they need and you're providing that for them. But at the same time, you are also expecting them to stay within boundaries. You're setting requirements around how they behave, for example.

So that could be contrasted with a parent who is neglectful, who doesn't set [00:13:00] boundaries, doesn't pay attention to their needs, and that would be not a good parenting style. So authoritative is the best one to aim for. So we are looking at being responsive to the dog's needs and that. That would include using positive reinforcement training methods and also using those training methods to set boundaries for them to make sure that they're not just allowed to do anything, but they know how to behave in a human world. And from research with children, we know that when parents have this parenting style, it has the best outcome for their kids. And that outcome is looking a long way ahead into the future. And through to when they become an adult, we see much better outcomes.

And it seems that this also is the case for dogs and how we care for dogs, basically.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: And if we think of what you might've seen on TV, or what your neighbor might say of some more older school. Dominance based training that would [00:14:00] fall instead into the authoritarian.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah, so that would be what we call authoritarian.

So it's similar name, but actually completely different approach. And so that's not good for dogs because we have a ton of research that shows that those those methods or those old fashioned methods have risks for dogs. And so we shouldn't use them, but they will be authoritarian because they're not really meeting the dog's needs, but they are applying very strict boundaries, but they're using the wrong methods to go about it.

So it's good that we've seen quite a big change in parenting of children and now also in, in caring for dogs as well towards these approaches that are much, much better for them

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: and authoritative and such. It's, it does us a bit of a disservice how close the terms are in sound, but it is like the sweet spot between the two.

Positive doesn't have to be permissive, but you even go, and this is why I love your work, ZY is how you get [00:15:00] into the science and the research of things. But you go into why the authoritarian, the kind of dominance based piece can result in dogs being more pessimistic in how studies have shown that too.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah, that's right. And so pessimism is a measure of the dog's long-term welfare. So it's another way of saying that this is bad for the dog's welfare. And a lot of people wonder, how do you tell if a dog is optimistic or pessimistic? Yeah. And it's a specific test that scientists use. And they don't just use it with dogs.

They do this test with other animals as well. But when they're doing the version with dogs they, the dog typically will come to the lab for it, and they have to be trained for it because first of all, they will have one bowl that has chicken in it. And they'll have another bowl that smells like chicken, but does not contain any chicken.

So they've rubbed the bowl with chicken because dogs have great noses. It's really important to know that they're not using their nose to [00:16:00] detect where the chicken is. So they have the dog on the start line, and they teach the dog that if there's a bowl here, it always contains chicken. If there's a bowl here, it never contains chicken.

And so the dog has lots of chances to go to the bowl and they wait until they know for sure the dog knows. This bowl always has chicken. This one never does. And then they get another bowl and they put it in the middle, or maybe just slightly to one side. And the idea is that if the dog is optimistic that this bowl will contain chicken, they're gonna get there faster, so they'll run to the bowl much more quickly.

Whereas if they're feeling pessimistic, they'll take their time because they're not expecting to find anything of interest in the bowl. Basically. So that's how they assess whether or not the dogs are optimistic or pessimistic. So then in terms of training methods they took dogs who just happened to be going to training classes that used either reward-based methods or a mix of reward-based and punishment based training methods.

And the ones that were trained using punishment some of the [00:17:00] time, basically they were more pessimistic at the end of this class. Whereas the reward-based dogs were more optimistic. So it's showing that it has this long-term effect on the dog's welfare.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: And do you explain in the book what the punishment looks like?

If we, if that, if you're trying to see if it fits into that category, what someone had been doing, and any pet parent who is going to a trainer, they're trying to go to an expert and they're trying to get help. And if you've used these methods and. You're seeing some fallout with your dog. I feel like you and I agree, there's no judgment from us.

We're all doing the best with what we know. Yeah. And it's not a licensed, regulated field. So people can use some things that could be pretty harmful and you're just trusting in what they say.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah, it's not a regulated field and I've heard so many stories of people who have gone to a dog trainer, and unfortunately [00:18:00] that dog trainer has used methods which are not a modern approach.

They are one of these outdated approaches, and it's had a bad effect on the dog. And I feel so bad for those dog guardians because it's not their fault. You should be able to just go to a dog trainer and know that they will use appropriate modern methods. And sadly, at the moment, that's not the case.

So you really have to be careful if you're choosing a dog trainer and make sure that they will only use, we can call it reward-based methods. Some trainers call it force free fear, free positive reinforcement. And that doesn't help either because we have lots of different words that we use. But those are the kinds of things to look for.

And if you're not happy with what the trainer is doing to your dog basically you should just walk away. Even if you've paid them good money, it's better for your dog to walk away and find a different trainer. And I actually have one of the people I spoke to for the book, she's now a fully board certified veterinary behaviorist, Dr.

Claudia Richter. And that's one of the things that she says in the book as well. She because I spoke to her about [00:19:00] what sh what should you do if you've accidentally gone to the wrong kind of trainer? And she says just walk away. Find another trainer.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: Yes, you'll spend more money and time trying to undo some of the fear that could be placed into your dog with that.

And I've had a lot of doodle parents as students who have said during the class, I felt really uncomfortable. I wouldn't have done that to my kid. And this is my baby too. And I felt really uncomfortable, but they know better. And some did just walk out and were relieved that they did. And a lot of people think.

Shock collars or prong collars seem really obvious as to what fits under some of those more punishment based methods, but you even list a little more that people might not think of, like shaking a pan, a can of pennies or the sh. Like noise that kind of corrective noise or yanking hard on the leash and calling that like a correction.

So you go into some of [00:20:00] those, what might seem more acceptable to some people and the effects that those have?

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yes, and I actually, I have a list of them in the book of things that you shouldn't do to your dog basically. And when I was working on the book and I sent the first version into my editor, she was like, Azzy, this is horrifying.

How do people do this to their dog? And she actually had me write something before it to say that you might actually want to not look at this next paragraph. If you prefer, you could just skip to after the list. Because if people already are only using reward-based methods, they find it really shocking that people use these approaches.

Yeah. But unfortunately, if you end up going to the wrong door trainer, they will be a advising. These, and I've put the list and it's important to note. So we've talked about that study, about pessimism and optimism in that study. One of the things that they were using was leash corrections. That was one of the things that led to the dogs being more pessimistic.

It was a correlational study. We can't directly prove course cause and effect, but because [00:21:00] we also have a whole load of other research studies, we can say quite confidently that these methods do have risks. So there's a list in there that people can look at. And probably the easiest way to think of it though is if the person is using food to train your dog, that's a good thing.

That's what you want to be looking for. There might be times when they're using play or petting or other kinds of rewards but they will always be happy to use food. And that's what most reward-based trainers will be doing, and that's something you should look for.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: One of our students, her partner asked, as we've been doing training inside of our class together, are we always going to have to use treats?

What would you say?

Dr. Zazie Todd: It's a very common question. And the thing is like you use the treats to make the behavior very strong. And there might be times when you use them less, but if you stop using them altogether, the risk is that behavior might disappear and go away. So technically we call that extinction.

That's the [00:22:00] psychological term for it. And we don't want that to happen 'cause you've spent all this time teaching your dog to sit nicely or to keep all four paws on the floor or whatever it is that you want them to do. So they are gonna be expecting to be paid now when they do these behaviors. So you have to keep paying them.

It's if you went to work and only got paid for the first few weeks and then after that you didn't get paid anymore, you would stop going to work. So you have to use that metaphor to think of it for your dog. And the same thing when we are working with a fearful dog. There may come a time when they're not afraid of something anymore because you've used wonderful treats to help them not to be afraid, but if you never give those treats again because the fear memories never go away, they're still like they're buried.

Underneath those positive memories, you need to keep putting positive memories on top of that. So you still do want to do a bit of, I call it maintenance training, to keep the training strong.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: And when you discuss extinction we do that on purpose with other undesirable behaviors. So [00:23:00] if a dog is demand barking while you're cooking and you don't give them any more food from the pan anymore, they're going to stop 'cause it stopped working.

And it's the same with positive behaviors. If they're keeping four paws on the floor, but we're not paying them for it, we're extinguishing that desirable behavior as well.

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yes, that's right. And then they'll start jumping on you again because they do want something we've brought your attention. So

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: yes. So we don't need to feel guilty for paying our dogs and we're not being a sucker.

Dr. Zazie Todd: No, it's the sensible thing to do and really it's something to be proud that you are doing, and it's also helping to build a good relationship between you and your dog because it means that all these nice things keep going your dog's way when they're in your presence, behaving in ways that you would like them to.

So it's helping to improve your relationship with them as well.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: As a fellow trainer who has experienced the Gene Donaldson's amazing Academy for [00:24:00] dog trainers, which is like a really intense two year program ZZI makes it digestible for pet parents, which is wonderful. And I'm gonna put you on the spot as I say that because the difference between desensitization and counter conditioning and you talk about Pavlov being on the shoulder, but do you mind if you, and if listeners want to dive deeper, I highly recommend this book to really get an understanding, but do you mind explaining the difference and how those come to play with an anxious, fearful, or reactive dog?

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yes. So let's use a dog who is afraid of loud noises as an example. 'cause I think it helps to have a concrete example. Yes. There would be two aspects of the training we'd do with them. And they sound like big words, desensitization and counter conditioning. So the desensitization part would be where you wanna get them used to these sounds.

So if it's fireworks, you could get a [00:25:00] recording of fireworks and you play it super quiet, like really quiet. And when I say really quiet, way quieter than you think. Basically it might be barely audible. And you're trying to find a level at which you can play that sound and the doctor does not respond at all.

The dog is quite happy if you play it and they start barking. Looking around what, where is this sound coming from? Then you know, it's too loud and you need to turn it down. So that's the desensitization part. And that basically is reducing the level of the stimulus to a level where the dog is quite happy and they feel quite safe.

And then ideally, at the same time as you're doing that, you're gonna be using a technique called counter conditioning and counter conditioning. You, everyone's heard about Pavlov's dogs? I think so. Everyone knows the story of how. Pavlov would ring a bell and the dogs would start to salivate because they had learned that ringing the bell predicted the fact that food was coming.

It's actually a much more complicated story than that, but we'll stick to, we'll stick to the part everybody knows. You [00:26:00] can read a bit more about it in the book if you want, but so we can use this technique to teach dogs that they don't have to be scared of something. Actually, they can really love it instead, because whenever it happens, it predicts absolutely wonderful treats.

So that's counter conditioning. And when we do counter conditioning, we say. In this example, every time they hear the sound of a firework, they're gonna get a really amazing treat. So it might be a piece of roast beef or sausage or chicken or cheese or something like that. Something that your dog absolutely really loves and you're gonna be generous with it, like you're throwing them a party because what you want to do is create a really nice surprise for the dog.

Yeah. They're not expecting it. They get this wonderful surprise food instead. And that over time that will help to teach them that actually the sound of fireworks is not something to be afraid of. It's something to like, because it predicts all these good things coming to them.

Quick pause if this convo has you. Thinking. My doodle needs a [00:27:00] calmer baseline. I built a bite-sized audio course just for us, my relaxation protocol for distractible doodles. It adapts Dr. Karen overall's protocols for doodles. Unique wiring, five to 15 minutes a day, earbuds in real life results. Listener perk, there's an exclusive discount at the end of this episode.

Okay, back to Azzy.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: Wonderful. We are going to dive in just a minute if you're all right with it and answer some of the Doodle Pro Academy students' questions about just that.

And I had one more question for you. In the book you talk about relaxation protocols and how those can help just lower the overall anxiety levels for dogs. And we have, so in this class, in Zumi, Suzanne, we have an adapted version of Suzanne Flo's. Really real relaxation and that one's more [00:28:00] capturing.

And then we have the relaxation protocol for distractible doodles, which is Dr. Karen overall's version of. Asking for and then rewarding the relaxation. And we have a lot of students in this class who have done both or about to do the really real relaxation one. What, do you have any more thoughts that you can add about relaxation protocols and the role that they play with fear or anxiety?

Dr. Zazie Todd: Yeah, so I wasn't sure going into writing this book how helpful they actually would be, but there is a bit of research that suggests that they are helpful and that people do find them helpful. We don't know yet which is the best way to teach it. And as you mentioned, there are several ways to teach it.

Yeah, so really I say to people that they should pick the way that they. Either that their professional tells them or that they prefer if they're not working with a dog training professional. So if there are people here who've done both, I would love [00:29:00] to hear your feedback actually on, on which approach you preferred.

But the idea is just that they help the dog to feel relaxed. But the other thing is, if you're doing counter conditioning, actually that also will be changing the dog's physiology. We are using it to change the dog's emotions, but it also will be dialing down the anxiety and helping them to feel more relaxed there as well.

So we don't fully understand. And I actually love that there are still things we don't fully understand. Yes, but we don't fully understand. How the relaxation protocols are working, if they're effectively functioning a bit like counter conditioning. Or if they really are teaching, because you can teach people as well how to relax using similar protocols too.

Yes. They can learn how to bring their heart rate down and they're breathing slow and so on. And it does seem that it helps. So I think it's really nice that it's there as an extra technique that people can use if their dog is anxious and fearful. And I know a lot of people have who've told me that they've really enjoyed teaching it to their dog.

Yes they've found [00:30:00] it a nice process.

Corinne Gearhart The Doodle Pro: It is not, it's not very stressful. And it, the relaxation's a bit contagious, especially with the capturing one where you're role modeling the relaxation you want and then capturing when they do it. So thank you. I appreciate that. 'cause I teach both because I see merit in both approaches.

And they seem to compliment each other in different ways.

And speaking of relaxation, some of our Doodle Pro Academy grads sent in their real life questions about fearful and anxious doodles from separation anxiety to loud noises to that dreaded under the bridge freeze. Dr. Todd answers them all in part two coming out next week and before you go. Don't forget your exclusive listener perk.

Grab the relaxation protocol for distractible doodles today and use Code Listener 20 for a special discount. It's linked right in the show [00:31:00] notes. I'll see you in part two.

Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Doodle Pro Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. And I invite you to follow me on Instagram at the Doodle Pro for behind the scenes peaks at all of the adorable doodles I work. With daily.