Ep 79: Should You Add a Second Dog? How to Introduce a New Puppy the Right Way

Is life with your Doodle more chaotic than calm—and you’ve started wondering if adding another might help?

Before you double the fluff, let’s talk timing, introductions, and what to do if things don’t go quite as planned.

In this episode of The Doodle Pro® Podcast, I’m joined by Lisa Lyle Waggoner, author of Rocket Recall™, and her husband and co-trainer Brad Waggoner, both faculty at the Victoria Stilwell Academy. Between them, they’ve introduced puppies to dogs at every life stage—from busy adolescents to sweet seniors—and they’re sharing what really works (and what to avoid).

Here’s what you’ll learn:

🐾 The best (and worst) timing for adding a second dog
 🚪 The exact first-day protocol—from outdoor greetings to inside management
 💬 How to read body language and prevent scuffles before they start
 🎯 Why “let them work it out” is risky—and what to do instead
 ❤️ What to do if your current dog just isn’t warming up to the new puppy
 🌟 When rehoming can be a loving choice—not a failure

Whether you’re planning for puppy number two or trying to bring peace back to your home, this episode gives you the calm, clear path every Doodle parent deserves.

Links Mentioned:

• Lisa Lyle Waggoner’s Rocket Recall™
• Cold Nose College
• The Doodle Pro® Blog: Should You Add a Second Dog?
• The Doodle Pro® Academy
  
  

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Transcript

 Should You Add a Second Dog? How to Introduce a New Puppy to an Adult Dog
Thinking about adding a second dog? Get the step-by-step introduction plan, ideal timing, body-language tips, and what to do if it’s not working—featuring trainers Lisa Lyle Waggoner (Rocket Recall) and Brad Waggoner on The Doodle Pro® Podcast.

H1: Puppies & Adult Dogs Done Right (Edited)

Episode Summary (optional): In this conversation, we dig into the exact first-day protocol for introducing a new puppy to your resident dog, the best (and worst) timing for adding a second dog, body-language red flags, play/break cycles, special considerations for seniors and adolescents, and what to do if it isn’t working—including when rehoming can be a loving choice.

Chapter Markers (optional):
 [00:00:00] Timing & adding a second dog
 [00:02:00] Meet Cody (senior) and Keaton (adolescent)
 [00:05:00] Management, gates, and early separation
 [00:09:00] Why “go slow” matters; protecting the puppy
 [00:10:30] Step-by-step first meeting protocol
 [00:13:00] Bringing them indoors safely
 [00:15:00] Reading body language & when to pause
 [00:19:00] Protecting seniors; body blocking
 [00:23:00] Socialization outside the home; solo time
 [00:31:00] If Dog 1 is reactive; don’t rush
 [00:33:00] Resetting a rocky start
 [00:35:00] When rehoming is compassionate
 [00:39:00] Listener Q&A: Charlie & Mila
 [00:44:00] Play breaks (“hockey whistle”) & puppy sleep

— — —

FULL TRANSCRIPT 

[00:00:00]

Corinne Gearhart: So if you are thinking about what it was like introducing at different stages and someone's planning to add another puppy to their family, what are the ideal ages for the adult dog to be

Brad Waggoner: So often people will have a dog and they reach Heaton's age, now adolescents 10 or 11 months, and they are adolescents, they're busy, they, and the brain takes vacations to think, oh, we just need another dog to give him somebody to play with.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. As Lisa

Brad Waggoner: just mentioned, now you've got two dogs that don't really have a lot of skills under their belt yet.

Corinne Gearhart: We have the author of Rocket Recall, Lisa Lyle Wagner, and not only do we have her joining us today, we have two guests joining Lisa and her husband Brad. Both dog trainers are both going to be joining us today because we're going to be talking about adding a puppy to a family that already has an adult dog and how to do it right, and this is truly a family affair.[00:01:00]
 So having both of their insights on how to make that work is just so valuable. So welcome, Brad and Lisa. I'm so happy to have both of you here today. Thank you, Corinne. It's so nice to be back.

Brad Waggoner: It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I'm Lisa and I'm a certified professional dog trainer, a certified separation anxiety trainer, a Pat Miller certified trainer and faculty.
 Both of us are on faculty for the Victoria Stillwell Academy of Dog Training and Behavior. We teach both the in-person courses. And where we also serve as faculty advisors for a our students.

Corinne Gearhart: Tell us about your two dogs as we have some people who are looking to add a puppy or some who recently have.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: We currently have Keaton who just turned 11 months old yesterday. I must admit he's been. Typical adolescent in some ways, all those new behaviors start to appear as his [00:02:00] hormones are changing and his brain is changing. But he really has been from the get go a pretty easy puppy on a scale of one to 10.
 He's pretty, pretty easy.

Brad Waggoner: And we also have Cody also an Australian Shepherd who is pushing 16 years old now.
 Cody came to us at about a year and a half, two years old. I'm not exactly sure. That's why we say pushing 16. Yeah. So we dunno the exact date he came from our local shelter and . He is a hot mess is what he was. And since he's No, he has been our, my training partner, he taught me so much. He is been a business partner. He has worked in pretty much every workshop seminar class we ever taught.

Corinne Gearhart: He's

Brad Waggoner: worked as a demo dog. He worked as a neutral dog for all of our activity cases.
 And as Lisa mentioned earlier, he has now, passed his senior years on into, geriatric phase.

Corinne Gearhart: But

Brad Waggoner: all that being said, he has helped us introduce [00:03:00] over the years now three, three puppies, new puppies into the household at different stages of his life. Yeah. Once when he was what, five or six another when he was, close to 10.
 And now, Keaton comes to us just a year ago. So he has been at different phases of his life all the way through these different
 A couple of different things to consider when bringing a new puppy in to the home. And when we're thinking about the existing dog in the house, a is that existing dog?
 Has that dog been the only dog? Where it has all of the attention of the people all of the time.
 And now we're
 introducing a new puppy, or in our case, is the existing dog maybe, or probably still grieving the loss of their buddy when we try to bring in a new dog.
 Think of it from a human perspective.
 If you were to lose a good friend or a partner and then somebody says here's a person here. This person's gonna move in and live with now. Yeah. And that's a big adjustment. Either one of those are big [00:04:00] one. Now I've gotta start sharing my people. I've never done this before and or.
 Oh, now I've got this new dog that I've never met, and it's supposed to be a replacement for this. They don't see it the way that we do all of the time.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And they had no, they didn't have a choice. Yeah. They didn't have a say. And I think

Corinne Gearhart: that's one of the most important pieces. And you shared that, Lisa, you pointed that out.
 You chose to bring those puppies in, not Cody.
 Exactly.
 And to recognize while you hope that a beautiful relationship will form and that this will could enhance Cody's life, he didn't ask for this. Exactly.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And I will say in a perfect world, Corrine and we've talked about this, we would not have brought another dog in at this stage of Cody's life.
 He could have been the only dog and been just fine. Yeah. With that said, I'm a professional dog trainer. I need a dog to work with and train and do videos with. 'cause I was, deep into some filming some rocket recall videos. But in connection [00:05:00] with my book, and Cody can't do that any longer.
 So I rocket there. Yeah. I needed a canine business partner. And I couldn't wait another year or two or more. Yeah. And we did, made the decision to bring Keaton in with, eyes wide open. It took us about nine, 10 weeks of purposeful training and counter conditioning to help them have a lasting relationship.

Brad Waggoner: Because Cody, that's much more than people would

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: think.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah. Because Cody was not at all friendly towards the new puppy. We, if we had just left them loose and left the house, we were afraid what we might come back to. We live in a small house to begin with, but we had more baby gates and fences up inside the house.
 I, for a couple of months every morning, had coffee on the couch with my dog beside me and a next pen around us.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Brad Waggoner: To keep the puppy wanting to be a puppy right. From getting up in his face and he wasn't gonna deal with that. So yeah,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: We live separately, but together through [00:06:00] Gates in

Brad Waggoner: community.

Corinne Gearhart: So if you are thinking about what it was like introducing at different stages and someone's planning to add another puppy to their family, what are the ideal ages for the adult dog to be in your mind? Because I would agree if it wasn't for the extenuating circumstances, 16 you would probably say would be too senior for a puppy.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I would, it truly, it is going to be, it depends because there are eight year olds who still are playing and vibrant like four year olds and vice versa. Yeah, that's true. You know that's so true. I advise people to never think about bringing another dog to only think about bringing a puppy or an adult dog in after that first dog.
 Is fully trained, trained, assimilated into the household well and isn't causing you to think, oh, I need to do this. And he's, you have to have a comfortable relationship with that own dog, with him learning him or her learning the [00:07:00] family manners that we want them to learn before we add a second dog.
 Because otherwise it's just going to be two dogs who are not fully threatened

Brad Waggoner: yet. So often people will have a dog and they reach Heaton's age, now adolescents 10 or 11 months, and they are adolescents, they're busy, they, and the brain takes vacations to think, oh, we just need another dog to give him somebody to play with.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. As Lisa

Brad Waggoner: just mentioned, now you've got two dogs that don't really have a lot of skills under their belt yet.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: So making

Brad Waggoner: sure the first dog is already well settled into the household and understands a few.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: If I had to give you an age, assuming all of what we just said is true I would probably say three to six. Yeah. But I think about our first dog, when we brought her into our household, we didn't know anything. We didn't know anything. We were so ignorant. We just didn't know. We didn't know she was eight when we brought a puppy in.
 Now we look back at some videos. But we were doing some really not good things, like leaving one resource out that they were both buying [00:08:00] for. And at

Brad Waggoner: that time we didn't, but we didn't know didn't, we didn't know positive reinforcement training either.
 Both those dogs were trained with pinch collars.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah. But she did well with him. They played, we've gone back through still photos to look at body language. Was there anything that we were missing then that we could see now and their relationship? We had no issues in the, from the beginning and no issues throughout their life together.
 Yeah. But

Brad Waggoner: yeah, I think, three years old, a socially mature settled into the family and it was a good age, physically able to deal with puppy antics. And Cody was five when we

Corinne Gearhart: brought

Brad Waggoner: Willow in. They grew up full of energy together and could run full speed together.
 But puppies are different. Bringing a puppy into the house is different than bringing an adult dog in.

Corinne Gearhart: Absolutely.
 Puppies do

Brad Waggoner: puppy stuff. If the dog has never been around puppies before and it's like, what's this little alien thing here? I don't understand this. So whether it's a senior dog that's currently in the house or younger, [00:09:00] whether it's been the only dog or if it has lost a house mate management's gonna be key.
 That's gonna be the first thing regardless.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah. I think, if you think of the umbrella over everything between puppy and adult dog is we have to take it as slow as possible to help the relationship be successful. There can be no, let's fast path it. We have to go at each dog's pace and with a puppy and an adult dog, making sure that puppy is physically safe from the a adult body play is key.
 Absolutely key.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah. Even if it's all good play, if everybody's having a good time, I say it's like the 10-year-old kid playing football with the college kids. It's not the college kid's gonna get hurt, it's gonna be the little guy. So even if it's all fun and games, the puppy is at risk now.
 Their joints aren't fully developed yet. The [00:10:00] too much rough and tumble played can be detrimental. So we wanna, manage that.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I just would like to talk about the steps that we've taken with each pair. Each pair. Yeah. So keeping that, overarching theme in mind, let's take it as slow as each dog needs to when the puppy first comes home we're fortunate we have a lot of land and a lot of acreage.
 So we can spread out pretty far.
 But making sure that when the puppy comes home, the adult dog is preferably with one person. It could be a friend, it could be a partner, could your spouse. The adult dog is on leash with one person and the puppy is on leash with the other person.
 Out of doors.
 And they're at a distance and they're, you're letting each dog see the other dog from afar. Each person should have food on them to reinforce the dog for good behavior good behavior for offered behavior and for being calm in the presence of the other. [00:11:00] And then once you spend a little time doing that we then ark around.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah, we

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: ark in a circle and we trade places so that way the adult dog can sniff where the puppy was and take in all that scent and the puppy can. Get the sense of the adult dog. Then we take a parallel walk together at a distance. We're still not inside, we're still not romping around.
 Nope nope. We're taking a walk outside. We're looking at body language, seeing if we can get each dog, puppy, and dog to focus on the other end of the leash. Us the person on the other end of the leash, and we continue to walk around and again, change places, let them sniff If the body language is looking good, not we're not seeing over arousal or any apparently aggressive or frustrating behaviors.
 Growling, lunging, or nonstop barking. If we're not [00:12:00] seeing none of that, then we'll gently go in for what we call a sniff and.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Or a drive by. So we go in, let them greet for just a second. Yay. Then, invite them apart and spend some time apart again before we then go in for a couple of sniff breaks.

Corinne Gearhart: And that's similar to a greeting that you might do dog to human right. In your head. You've got three seconds we're gonna go say hi and then Absolutely. And keep moving.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Absolutely. Yeah, that relationship is so new. Yeah. That it's just so new. And so I wanna protect each dog's feelings about the other one.
 We still, when we move inside, we're gonna take them in separately. Scuffles oftentimes happen in tight spaces, so we're not letting them get clumped up.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah. And I was we take the puppy in first and let the puppy walk through the house and sniff around. Being mindful, keep an eye, hopefully the puppy doesn't pee on stuff, right?
 But having given [00:13:00] the puppy a chance to do that outdoors, but let the puppy go in on leash again, explore the house and get, sniff everything before bringing the other dog in. We don't want there to be any space shell resource starting type stuff going on. We want,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: oh, and all toys picked up, no resources on the floor, no bones, no juice, no toys.

Brad Waggoner: And of course if we bringing a puppy home, we've hopefully done our homework and have all the appropriate puppy stuff.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. And that would

Brad Waggoner: include baby gates and X pins, so that when we can't have our eyes on the puppy can be secured in a safe place that also gives the existing dog some peace.
 Yes, they can actually go lay down and take a nap and not worry about this puppy, bounding up on top. The ingredients outside sniffing briefly and watching body language, that's so important.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And if we don't have gates up, then [00:14:00] then each dog is on leash, puppies on leash, dog's on leash.
 So we are, we're always managing, we're managing every second of the day to ensure that the relationship grows.

Brad Waggoner: And while it's true that the puppy will learn some social skills from the adult dog I, how do I wanna say this properly? Telling the little guy off on occasion, we want to make sure it's not over the top.
 Puppies are so impressionable. One snark at that age could set the puppy up to be possibly reactive to other dogs all the time. So we just need to be mindful of that and not allow a situation to occur where that might happen.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: So a another piece of advice for everyone out there who's listening is no dog body language first, before you bring a puppy into your home.
 Because that's, it's the dog's body language that's gonna help you make the wise [00:15:00] decisions on when to let things continue and when to separate them

Brad Waggoner: especially watching the older dog Yes. The current dog in the house to see, are they stiffening up? Are they giving a hard stare at that puppy, or did they look all soft
 there's a big difference in their state of mind.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: So while it took
 nine to 10 weeks with Kaylee and Cody. It took just a week with Keaton and Cody. Amazing.

Brad Waggoner: No, I think size plays into it as well. With Kaylee, even though we were really aware of Cody's discomfort, the bigger Kaylee got, the more accepting Cody became. Now that may have just been time passage as well.
 But I think there was a difference there too, just the physical size between the two dogs.

Corinne Gearhart: And sometimes the opposite can be true because adult dogs. Can give a puppy pass. He was an adolescent. Yes. He just crawled into our laps on our chairs and so feel better and mouthing up like [00:16:00] excitedly.
 These are two pro dog trainers, it happens,

Brad Waggoner: What happens sometimes. The shoemaker's children's have no shoe.
 But you are correct and that a lot of times you'll see in play even to adult dogs, if there's a big size difference.
 Sometimes we call it self handicapping. The bigger dog will either go ahead and roll over or make themselves smaller so that they can play more appropriately. We've seen it with puppies and adult dogs. The adult dog will self handicap and not use all of their strength and speed when playing with a puppy.
 We have also seen it with the puppy handicapping for the senior dog.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Kaylee did it a lot, which is

Brad Waggoner: pretty cool. We knew that Kaylee could run circles around and jump over and under and just pummel Cody, but she held back. So watching that develop is really heartwarming when you know that they do recognize one another and their differences.

Corinne Gearhart: I think you said something before that's [00:17:00] really important. When you were describing watching the body language, especially of the older dog and giving them space, A lot of people think it's my adult dog's responsibility to correct the puppy and teach the puppy that's not okay and put them in their place.
 Can you talk a little bit more about that lore? You bet.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I think there is an appropriate. Response from an adult dog to a puppy, which might be a lip curl or a bit of a snark. Just some very subtle body language. But if it's something more than that,

Brad Waggoner: they're making solid contact. That's too much.
 Yeah. That is

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: way too much. We would never advise to just let the dogs work it out.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. Now

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: with that said, you do want communication to occur. However, between dog to dog, but the puppy is still developing those social skills.

Brad Waggoner: Puppy doesn't come with a pre-programed set that, oh, [00:18:00] that big lip curl and snarl means I better back off.
 They don't know that in the beginning.
 So , if we see that from the adult dog, we need to call a puppy over time to take a break.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes.

Brad Waggoner: That's your cue to step back.

Corinne Gearhart: They see a lot of adult dogs that almost look cornered. Yes. They don't get a break and they have to give bigger and bigger reactions to try to create space from the puppy that's have an outlet to go get some downtime.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah. It's kinda like when you have a cat in the house and you bring a dog in, you need to give the cat room to escape that madness if you will. To go up or into another room. We need to do the same with the adult dog in the house so that they can take a break.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And I think what
 we have to protect Cody at all costs. Yeah. When we're walking together with him, awfully, if Keaton's running toward Brad and Cody, Brad will body blocks, get in front of Cody, because if Keaton [00:19:00] hit Cody at full force
 With a, shoulder check or a hip check, it could do some serious damage to his body.
 Yeah.

Brad Waggoner: If Cody's age, he can, if you walk past him fast, he'll, he can look at you and fall over. He is just, doesn't have, he's not as agile as he once was.

Corinne Gearhart: No, he's walk, but when you have another

Brad Waggoner: 50 plus pound dog racing by, it's just best to, be standing close by so you can step between them.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: It was for us, with Cody and Keaton, it was more about can he be in the same room and not feel like he needs to leave? Can he be in the same room and with training and with management of Keaton prevent Keaton from pummeling Cody. And, we still have some food on us, so we're gonna reinforce behaviors that each dog is giving us

Brad Waggoner: that we like.
 So a lot of name recognition with the puppy, a lot of focus check-ins and so that we see things starting to escalate that we can redirect the puppy, say Keaton's name, call him [00:20:00] over to us. We can engage Keaton in that game of play or whatever that he wants to be playing as opposed to trying to get that game out of Cody.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And I would say for, gosh, the first few months, I always kept Keaton's mat near me. I just moved the mat around the house with me and would reinforce Keaton for just being on his mat. Yes. So it was, pretty much his chosen place to be versus trying to interact with

Brad Waggoner: Cody. And again, this, now this is a puppy and a geriatric dog playing.
 When he was just an adult and Kaylee came into our life so he could still run full speed across the pasture. He had no problem with that. So once Kaylee got past a little fluff ball stage, start, started getting size, and we weren't seeing that. Predatory picture on Cody's face.
 Yeah. Which we saw once or twice when she was a puppy Uhhuh, when they could be outside and run when they had, when Cody had space to move [00:21:00] away he could run away from Kaylee and get away from that and the house couldn't, but outside. With space, he could create his own space.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah. That's a, that was helpful.
 That's a very good point that you just made, Brad. It's important to make sure your adult dog always has the ability to move somewhere else. And I think we said that already, but if bears repeat the older dog needs an owl. Yes. And if he doesn't have it, then you need to provide the space.
 You need to make that space

Brad Waggoner: With your puppy and socialization is off as prime, but so is some simple behavior such as simply name and attention. So that you can say the puppy's name, have them look back at you and redirect them when need be.

Corinne Gearhart: And having recall, like Lisa so brilliantly wrote a book on being able to call them off of each other while still healthy.
 Absolutely. It all

Brad Waggoner: starts from that [00:22:00] being able to say the dog's name and ask for their attention. That's where it begins.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And yeah, I was thinking about this the other day about the unrealistic belief that many people have that no matter what situation their dog is.
 Their dog should immediately look at them when their name is said. Does that happen with Brad and I at a party with a lot of people, it's really engaged, chatting with my friends. He may have to call me two or three times to get my attention before I actually see that he wants something. Yeah. Yeah, if you, I think it helps to think about human relationships and situations and how difficult it, it is for us at so times in certain ways so that we have empathy for adults.

Brad Waggoner: And that empathy comes from if you're being, stuck in an elevator with somebody who is annoying, how annoying that actually is. And that's our adult dog with a puppy in the house. No, they're stuck in the elevator and they can't get away, so

Corinne Gearhart: I get snar [00:23:00] too.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. Watching Lisa, you share the beautiful journey of Cody and Keaton's relationship.
 One of the things that I loved seeing that you shared is the opposite of a mistake. I see a lot. So people, first, we talked about getting a second puppy when the first dog's a bit too young and isn't really solidly trained. My adolescent dog's really busy. I need someone to keep them occupied, but.
 When they bring in the second dog, there's a lot less puppy class, puppy socialization leaving the house with just that puppy because they've got their big brother or sister to play with. They wear them out and they have a dog to play with. And I love seeing Keaton on his own going to classes. You guys are professional dog trainers and you're still going to an external class to have that setting and those distractions.
 And he is doing like a [00:24:00] daycare that's full of enrichment. So he's not only comfortable with his one big brother, that one dog, he's familiar with unfamiliar dogs and settings,

Brad Waggoner: but that's a, it's a double benefit because it gives Cody a day off too.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes,

Brad Waggoner: The older dog has some
 time, but you're absolutely right.
 It takes spending individual time with each dog, not just. Assuming that they'll take care of one another's needs. They still like us and want us around too. So spending time with each dog individually as well as together is certainly important. We're trainers. We're trainers, but we still take our dogs to the training classes and people like, really?
 Why

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: are you doing that? I know. It's so funny. I've got

Brad Waggoner: friends who are school teachers and they still send their kids off the school, absolutely.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: It's fun for me. I love doing things with my dogs, but it's vital for the dog. Vital for the puppy that he gets experienced around other dogs in an early age.
 It's [00:25:00] vital that he learns to focus on me around other dogs and people. It's vital life skills that he's gonna learn with me somewhere else. Yes, I can work on those things at home and teach behaviors. Yeah. But I can't bring people to my work. I need him to get out and be where I will be with him and start learning to work together.

Brad Waggoner: Yeah. We live in a pretty rural environment we don't get out much and people don't come to the house and when we go outside we don't see people walking up and down the road. So making a point to get the puppy out early Yeah. And to experience that stuff is certainly

Corinne Gearhart: important. You've seen with clients too that their second dog often could be a bit more nervous or less socialized?
 I think it,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I think in general that's true because yes, they do think, as you mentioned earlier finally I have, someone to, to play with this other or to keep my other dog [00:26:00] busy.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: But that individual relationship with each dog is so important and , if you have multiple adults in the household.
 We'll be working with the dog. It's important for each person to spend time alone with their dog.
 Relationships grow because of time spent together. That's enjoyable. Just like ours. Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: No figure. Yes.
 We have a lot of parents who say, it's impossible to take them on a walk together.
 They feed off of each other. They're zigzagging, and not only giving yourself permission, but that it could be a good thing to take a solo walk. I think it's very

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: important.

Brad Waggoner: Until they can walk by themselves nicely on a loose leash, it's gonna be really hard to do it with someone else.
 Yeah. Another dog present.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I think if you do want to walk two dogs at the same time, you need to train to do that. Yeah. You need to train the first dog to walk nicely on leash in the area that you plan to have them walk. We needed to. [00:27:00] Teach dog two the same thing, and then you start doing that together.
 But it's a recipe for frustration if you walk two of them at the same time that aren't correct. And again, focus on that individual relationship

Brad Waggoner: and I think we may have mentioned this before we, we went live, who's the walk for? Is it for us to get exercise or for the dogs in Richmond?
 If it's for the dogs in enrichment, you probably don't have to go far, just let the dogs sniff.
 I had clients say we walk three miles in the morning and we do another three mile walk every evening. And he is still going nuts. I said, take the same amount of time, but just walk a quarter mile each time.
 All he wants to do is sniff. I said, fine. It's for the dog. Now you've got your elliptical at home and you can get your exercise whenever you want to. But let those walks be for the dog to just see the world through their nose.

Corinne Gearhart: Trying to increase the exercise to wear them out, just, it becomes endless of adding more [00:28:00] and generally, I gonna say,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: an athlete

Corinne Gearhart: needs more exercise.

Brad Waggoner: You just warm 'em up.

Corinne Gearhart: Exactly. They're in excellent condition, but now they've got more stamina. Yep. So we talked about like a peaceful coexistence between Cody and Keaton. Sounds like the sweet spot and the goal that you were looking for with him being a bit more like geriatric and Keaton being a puppy.
 If you had two dogs that are closer in age and closer in stamina and energy level, how would you describe the goal that you're striving for of their relationship?

Brad Waggoner: I think that would've been Cody and Willow. Cody was five years old, I think came Uhhuh. And by the time she became socially mature, say two, he was just seven.
 So that's pretty two healthy, strong working adult dogs.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Brad Waggoner: But when she came, like I said before, he had [00:29:00] lots of energy. He could still move away when he wanted to. We do have in a dog body language presentation that we often give a video of Cody laying between the couch and the coffee table and a little puppy willow's all up in his face.
 And Cody's given all kinds of great body language. That's why we included it. Now we're sitting there filming, watching this thing about happening. But we did interrupt it when he did give a big lip curl, Uhhuh, but he was in a place where he couldn't get away between the couch and the coffee table, and the puppy was just all up in his face.
 Again, she was just a 10 week old puppy, I think, at that time.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: So we let that go on for a little while until we saw

Brad Waggoner: that he had enough. That he had enough. Yeah.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And then we interrupted

Brad Waggoner: it and he was in a place where he couldn't get up and walk away. But that said, when she did get a little more size and a little more physically able, they were great play buddies.
 They were awesome. They were, like I said [00:30:00] earlier, they were an amazing team.
 When did we decide to leave the house and just leave them in the house by themselves?

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: When we did that, we didn't even have cameras in the house that was, pre cameras.
 Let me think back.

Brad Waggoner: I bet it was at least,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I bet it was probably six months or so. That's what I was

Brad Waggoner: gonna guess. Yeah,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: it was probably six months or so.

Brad Waggoner: And again, that's just us being cautious.
 They may have been fine together before then. I think I was just out of a abundance of caution.

Corinne Gearhart: What is your advice to people who, their first dog is a bit dog reactive and they're trying to tell if it's appropriate to add a puppy to their household or not? I think if

Brad Waggoner: the dog is already dog reactive, you got some work to do with that dog before adding another the dog may accept a new dog into the house or it may not, and that's a gamble and it's one that I personally wouldn't [00:31:00] risk.

Corinne Gearhart: Yep.

Brad Waggoner: Maybe if your current dog, if they do have another dog buddy or you're thinking about a second dog, maybe do some trial visits

Corinne Gearhart: To

Brad Waggoner: see if, your dog may not be reactive to that new dog. But if your dog is already dog reactive, again, reactivity is a broad spectrum. It can be from over excitement to, resources, aggressive displays. Yeah. I had say, work with a professional trainer to help the existing dog become more comfortable in the presence of other dogs before deciding to bring another dog into your own home.
 So that's a big commitment. And you don't want to subject a puppy to , to a dog that's already dog reactive. Because active set the puppy up for failure

Corinne Gearhart: and for people who might be listening and they tuned into this episode because they've already added the puppy, and they're like, Ooh, things aren't going as well as we had hoped.
 Often you'll hear, we see that every

Brad Waggoner: time a new puppy comes up,[00:32:00]

Corinne Gearhart: oh, I love it. What were we thinking? So does every puppy parent, every

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: s are very hard work.

Corinne Gearhart: I always

Brad Waggoner: say there's a reason why
 after a certain age we don't have children. They are a lot of work.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah. And why they're made so cute, both babies

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: and puppies. Oh I said that to Keaton the other day. I said, it's a good thing you're so handsome body.
 11 months

Corinne Gearhart: later. Yes.
 For people who have already introduced, didn't know, the steps that you're recommending and they've already introduced this puppy and they're like, my adult dog doesn't like them, or, this isn't work, I thought they were gonna be best friends right away.
 And it's not seeming to work. What do you say to clients who come to you at that stage of the game?

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: First of all relationships that didn't get off on a good foot or a good paw, you can back up and start anew. Literally start [00:33:00] anew. With those steps that I shared earlier, overarching theme.
 We want both dogs to be comfortable and we want to meet their needs. And so go back to square one and set up baby gates. Do keep dogs on leash. Take parallel walks. Make good stuff happen in the presence of the other one other. And do it slowly and the relationship will probably start to grow and develop.

Brad Waggoner: All times we'll hear that, a month in isn't much time. And there's some people I've met that I, first time I met about you, I don't need to see you much more. We're done. But over time you start to find that person's qualities and realize, oh, I made a quick judgment there.
 And you end up being great friends down the road. It can work with dogs too. Maybe the first meeting didn't go great, but as we said, back up to square one. Do proper [00:34:00] reintroductions, better management, if it was a argument over a chew toy, just make sure there's none of those around.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah we were not cautious at all anymore with Cody and Keaton because Cody could care less about toys these days.
 But yeah, I would, for a sufficient amount of time. We're very cautious about any resources, especially if we already know the existing dog in the home could be fussy over resources. If that's true, then we're keeping all resources up and we still feed our dogs in separate rooms.

Brad Waggoner: But all that being said, I have told clients who have,
 Tried adding another dog or a younger dog, maybe a puppy, and it's simply isn't working out.
 In my opinion, there's no shame in finding that new puppy a, a different home. Work with it. I'm happy to work with them as [00:35:00] much as they want. But if they're not happy, if the puppy's not happy, if the existing dog isn't happy and there doesn't seem to be a willingness or a really clear course forward, then Rehoming is, in my opinion, a viable option.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: We always need to give the guardian, the pet parent, the opportunity and permission to re-home if that's necessary, because it's a 15 year relationship.

Brad Waggoner: In short, it. If it's not working, in my estimation, there's no shame in finding a new puppy, a better suited home.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes.

Brad Waggoner: It's, there's no sense in everybody being miserable just trying to force something to work.

Corinne Gearhart: And one of our members just did that I think the same day that her puppy came home with her having a reactive dog already, and she was able to see that this was not working for her reactive dog. And that's the most [00:36:00] loving thing,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: idiot. That gave me cold chills of the good kind. That was like, wow.
 What an astute, amazing puppy parent who understands the needs of her existing dog Yeah. And the needs of the puppy, and is doing what's best for both of them.

Brad Waggoner: And know, quick treat. No. A, a good breeder will take the puppy back. Hopefully. Absolutely. A good breeder will ask the proper questions first to say, what kind of dog do you have at home and what's going on before a new puppy joins?
 But sometimes the wrong dog ends up in the wrong house, or the right dog in the wrong house, or the wrong house for the right dog, however you wanna view it. And it's not a good fit. And and that was such a

Corinne Gearhart: loving decision for both. Yes. For her existing adult dog and for the puppy before being exposed to unhappy, interactions during this crime have

Brad Waggoner: sensitive

Corinne Gearhart: period.

Brad Waggoner: We have a wonderful trainer friend who's just done the same
 thing. She returned her puppy to the breeder all the way across the [00:37:00] country because it was not working in her house.
 Better everybody be happy than just try to make something stick that shouldn't.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: There is no shame in making a wise decision for all of you. Four-legged and two-legged, because it's a 10 to 15 year relationship.

Corinne Gearhart: Absolutely. And that said, knowing that could be a loving choice, it's not the default.
 So many of these relationships can be worked out when we're intentional giving the adult dog the space and giving the puppy the enrichment that they need. Yes.

Brad Waggoner: And thank you for doing this podcast because it gives people the information that they need before making that decision. Maybe they'll go, oh, maybe this isn't the right time.
 Maybe we need to wait just a little bit.

Corinne Gearhart: I do think this needs to be Lisa's next book. It's Corinne

Brad Waggoner: It's on the list of next.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah. I dunno if it'll be the next, several since Willow and Kaylee. Now, Keaton, you're not the [00:38:00] only one that said you need to write a book on this.
 You guys have done it so many times. People have said that to us over and over. And I had it on my list before Rocket Recall. But I imagine that while I'm finishing my memoir, which has some really challenging emotional pieces in it, I'm gonna need an emotional break from that writing and maybe I can begin working on the puppy and dog or puppy and dog book, which I already have a title for.
 I think, I don't what it did, it was because of that Facebook post where I said the whipper snapper and the sage.

Corinne Gearhart: Ah, yes. Oh yes. That's perfect. There's just not another resource. I even have to, that's the title.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I bought the URL that day.

Corinne Gearhart: Wonderful. I have a question from one of our doodle Pro honor societies members that I think are listeners in general might benefit from your answer on. Sure. And I'm just gonna read this out loud for you [00:39:00] guys. My dog's Charlie, 4-year-old, 55 pound Aussie, Dole, and Mila.
 A 13 week old, nine pound Australian Labradoodle want to play with each other. Mila plays like a puppy bites, nips jumps, and Charlie's very patient with her. She does the play bow and invites Charlie to chase her. He's interested at first, but he is just too big for the type of roughhousing she's asking for.
 I know everyone keeps saying keep them apart, but they want to be next to each other and cry when I keep them separated with baby gates.

Brad Waggoner: We have lived this.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Yeah, so first of all. Our goal here is to make sure the young puppy isn't injured by the large dog. That's so important.
 I would say keep that in mind first and foremost. I think taking them together on sniff walks.
 Seriously I'm gonna revert back to sniff [00:40:00] walks a lot, but if they can be walking side by side with each other, sniffing, that's going to get both of their energies out. And then perhaps Clay could ensue without interruption of Charlie being overzealous. Yes.

Brad Waggoner: 13 weeks is still a mighty young puppy. And as much as we would want. Charlie and the puppy to hit it off right off the bat. They've got a lot of time together still to

Corinne Gearhart: come.

Brad Waggoner: I would err on the side of more caution early, lots of sniffy walks, like Lisa said, maybe some three-way tug so that Mila isn't being, drug all over the floor.
 And, supervising that play closely. Even maybe being a third party in the place so that we can protect the puppy. But know that in just a few weeks the puppy's gonna have a little bit more size. And again, 13 weeks it's still a baby and doesn't really need to be [00:41:00] playing hard.
 Giving Charlie some individual high energy play by himself. To give some of those yaya's out before interacting with a puppy might be a good idea

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: It's important at this age for Myla to find a well run puppy socialization class.
 That's the kind of interaction that your puppy is going to need so that one day that puppy can play well with Charlie. Now with that said, what could you do with both of them together without them interacting? I said sniff walks. You teach nose targeting to each one of them. You can sit on the floor, cross-legged, have one on each side of you or on their own mat.
 Yes. And, just alternate nose targeting with each one so it becomes a game. And then if you can teach 'em to nose target your hand, then teach to nose, target, and target an item. And place an item in front of each one of them, and as they nose target [00:42:00] that item, reinforce them for that. So they're interacting together to get reinforced for things you want them to do, and their Mya is protected from Charlie.

Brad Waggoner: Again, Milan is still a baby and needs to be protected, looked after. And rest assured that Milo's gonna grow quickly and will soon be able to match Charlie's.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: But remember that joints are not fully formed until she's a year old.
 She, yes

Corinne Gearhart: if she's that small at that age too, so she might stay smaller than 55 pound or oodle. Even as an adult,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: my friend thought I was nuts. Now she's a client. Yeah. But her puppy was seven months old when Keaton was a puppy.
 And it was months before I let them play together because the size difference was just too great.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: My barometer is like 50% size [00:43:00] difference. I might let them play, but anything above that, I'm not gonna let even two adult dogs play. , It's not the little

Brad Waggoner: Big kid anyway.
 The football game is gonna get hurt. It's gonna be the little guy. Even if it's all fun and games, it's the little one that's gonna walk away or not walk away. Injured.

Corinne Gearhart: And when you're talking about Charlie and Mila I love how you're saying puppy socialization class
 it is healthy. For them to have time apart,

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: man. Absolutely. Mandatory for them to have time apart. Yes. Brad and I, 38 years we've been married, we

Brad Waggoner: need time

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: apart yeah. Yes. It's, each dog needs to learn to be an individual as well

Corinne Gearhart: as a pair of dogs together. And when you have your experience of running puppy classes in your facility and managing these interactions and building these [00:44:00] relationships with your own dogs, my guess is that you had more breaks during playtime than people anticipate.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: Oh, we never let play go on for longer than four or five minutes. Yeah, I bet. If things were going well. Because what happens with any play. Puppy and adult dog together, or dogs of the same age play is always arousing. So that arousal is gonna build and build and build and build, and it's important to let it build.
 Take a break so it diffuses. Let it build again. Take a break, it diffuses. So no behavior gets over the top or tips over once, once it tips over, then it's like kids on the playground, you're having a scuffle,

Brad Waggoner: I call
 it a hockey game without a whistle. Yeah.
 If you've ever watched ice hockey, if the play goes on too long without the riff blowing a whistle and stopping the play for a minute, there's gonna be a fight. Yeah. So if the play goes on too long, if the [00:45:00] dogs aren't mature enough to understand how to take those self-regulating breaks then it's up to us to step in and interrupt the play for a minute, and then let them go back to playing again.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: And what happens is. The adult dog may have the self regulation skills with another adult dog, but the puppy does not have those skills yet. And if the puppy doesn't back off,

Brad Waggoner: the adult's got no choice.
 Stay engaged.

Corinne Gearhart: And for those of us who have had human kids where our toddler missed a nap, they don't lay down and be like, I'm sleepy. I'm going to put myself down. No. Their choices become poor. Their impulse control is weaker, and you're more likely to get bigger feelings, more upset. And puppies do need more sleep than we usually estimate.
 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
 Lisa, I'm going to be keeping my eye out for your book for the next ones.

Lisa Lyle Waggoner: I've committed it publicly now, so I guess I have to do, said it in [00:46:00] another another live chat a couple of days ago.

Brad Waggoner: That'll give us our time apart 'cause she'll be in her studio writing and I'll be able to do stuff.

Corinne Gearhart: And this interview will be there to hold people over until then.

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